The Second Session of the Conference explored the interplay of relationships in synthetic environments and the geophysical world with specific referencing to World of Warcraft. The chatlog listed below is a _textshot_ segment of the session. This _textshot_ incorporates several text streams that were generated at the event, including emotes, whispers, trade chat, general chat, and guild chat.

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5/11 02:31:48.796 [Guild] Southerncal: THIS IS MY WAY OF GETTING THINGS STARTED. Hi, all. I’m Dmitri Williams at USC and I’m chairing this session. Please do not type in /g while this is going.
5/11 02:32:18.171 [2. Trade] Oldirtyblu: wts Heavy Clefthoof Leggings 115g
5/11 02:32:21.390 Ronaan’s pet begins eating a Chunk of Boar Meat.
5/11 02:32:21.890 Gontrus dwddd
5/11 02:32:24.296 Hycintha has joined the guild.
5/11 02:32:24.296 Forthewin tells Tiral NO. Not going to happen.
5/11 02:32:27.687 Gonzorina’s pet begins eating a Stormwind Brie.
5/11 02:32:29.593 Noralore’s Lionel is dismissed.
5/11 02:32:29.593 [Guild] Southerncal: We have 4 excellent panelists here today, and I’m eager to get started
5/11 02:32:29.593 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant Boots - Fortitude 19G my mats….
5/11 02:32:29.593 [Raid Leader] Lightsydor: a few of us have joined “/join sciencechat” for a place to chat outside of guild chat during the conference….
5/11 02:32:30.109 Yasura goes “Shhh”
5/11 02:32:30.125 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant Chest - Major Resilience 39G my mats… Nice PVP Enchant………..
5/11 02:32:33.296 [Guild] Southerncal: So:
5/11 02:32:35.078 [Guild] Southerncal: Here we go, QUESTION #1:
5/11 02:32:35.078 [Guild] Southerncal: Are friendships formed within VWs real?
5/11 02:32:35.500 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant Weapon - Major Spellpower 230g my mats…
5/11 02:32:35.921 Perplextar has come online.
5/11 02:32:47.625 Boscotore has joined the guild.
5/11 02:32:48.796 Madrededios creates Linen Bandage.
5/11 02:32:49.781 Stronglykbul’s Tukk is dismissed.
5/11 02:32:50.328 Why lies down.
5/11 02:32:52.218 Madrededios creates Linen Bandage.
5/11 02:32:55.609 Madrededios creates Linen Bandage.
5/11 02:32:59.187 Madrededios creates Linen Bandage.
5/11 02:33:02.468 Madrededios creates Linen Bandage.
5/11 02:33:06.765 [Guild] Maggiemae: please put away pets and minions
5/11 02:33:10.250 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats 120g my mats….
5/11 02:33:11.578 Passera’s Eternity is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:18.343 Why lies down.
5/11 02:33:19.234 Forthewin gently pats ThomasYoke.
5/11 02:33:19.796 Nise says: bye Cotherapist
5/11 02:33:20.750 Forthewin waves goodbye to ThomasYoke. Farewell!
5/11 02:33:24.593 Tiral waves.
5/11 02:33:24.593 Zomboni waves goodbye to Bore. Farewell!
5/11 02:33:25.593 Darrwi has gone offline.
5/11 02:33:26.031 Numbersix has joined the guild.
5/11 02:33:26.750 Tiral waves goodbye to everyone. Farewell!
5/11 02:33:28.296 Tiral falls asleep. Zzzzzzz.
5/11 02:33:29.171 Madrone’s Iorek is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:29.718 Forthewin’s ThomasYoke is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:32.562 To Maggiemae: is it ok to answer in gchat? no protocol there?
5/11 02:33:35.734 Boscotore’s Bore is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:36.937 Nise’s Cotherapist is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:38.578 Ronaan’s Kierkegaard is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:39.265 [Guild] Southerncal: Our panelists are Nick Yee, Tim Burke, Constance Steinkhueler and Julian Dibbell
5/11 02:33:39.781 Gonzorina’s Darwin is dismissed.
5/11 02:33:43.062 Nise cries.
5/11 02:33:53.687 [2. Trade] Grano: (TB) Selling Enchants: [Any Weapon: Fiery Weapon - 32g]
5/11 02:33:53.687 Alishya lets everyone know that she is ready!
5/11 02:33:58.812 Maggiemae whispers: the panelists should be answering mostly
5/11 02:34:06.703 To Maggiemae: ok
5/11 02:34:08.234 Forthewin misses Thomas
5/11 02:34:09.640 [Guild] Estelan: From the survey data, 75% of 3200 respondents answered yes when asked whether they had become good friends with someone they met in an online game, so we know that most gamers feel that there is something to these friendships …
5/11 02:34:11.078 [Guild] Estelan: On the whole though, I think it’s more productive to think about how online relationships provide different social spaces than F2F relationships, rather than to compare the two and say that one is more real or better than the other. <end>
5/11 02:34:13.265 [Guild] Pleimisti: And it’s an awkward question, Dmitri, as all 5 of us are “friends” mainly by virtue of playing WoW
5/11 02:34:14.781 Darrwi has come online.
5/11 02:34:21.562 [Guild] Southerncal: They are all identified by icons over their heads
5/11 02:34:31.750 [Guild] Estelan: <- Nick Yee
5/11 02:34:36.343 [2. Trade] Rakarkaws: Hi,everyone!In order to thanks for your support as far, SusanExpress would provide the lowest price (950g=25.88USD) for all the realms of US WOW.The delivery time is 30mins to few hours.
5/11 02:34:47.921 [2. Trade] Moldy: report spammer!
5/11 02:34:48.234 [Guild] Augmentology: shouldn’t it depend on a working definition of “friendship”?
5/11 02:34:51.328 [2. Trade] Mamorica: done
5/11 02:34:54.156 Elywen has come online.
5/11 02:34:55.265 [2. Trade] Renasant: Reported.
5/11 02:34:57.000 [2. Trade] Glommer: done
5/11 02:34:57.765 [2. Trade] Mihale: WTB well geared tank for heroic bf
5/11 02:34:57.765 Réjean has come online.
5/11 02:34:59.453 [2. Trade] Ikutazeria: gone already
5/11 02:35:19.968 [2. Trade] Grano: (TB) Selling Enchants: [Any Weapon: Fiery Weapon - 40g]
5/11 02:35:24.890 [Guild] Constances: great point jullian (pleimist) - its always interesting to me that I have colleagues who I see less of than gamer friends, yet my gamer friends need to be defended in terms of their “realness”
5/11 02:35:26.203 [Guild] Augmentology: ie readdressing that biologically mandated concept for synthetic environs?
5/11 02:35:31.468 [Guild] Computabull: Do use guild chat for questions and answers.
5/11 02:35:35.203 [Guild] Pleimisti: I think it may also be productive to ask how friendships formed in VWs are different from those formed in other online spaces?
5/11 02:35:38.250 [Guild] Southerncal: Pleimisti = Julian, Estelan = Nick, Tburke = Tim, Constances = Constance
5/11 02:35:39.765 [Guild] Constances: truthfully, i think theres a generational divide going on.
5/11 02:36:03.390 [Guild] Tburke: Broaden it out to relationship, if you like. One of the basic issues behind a lot of our questions today is the real/virtual divide. Scholars maybe spend too much time worrying about that as a whole.
5/11 02:36:04.375 [Guild] Madrone: I agree with that
5/11 02:36:05.484 [2. Trade] Holorezio: How do you get +100 hp to a lvl 29 helm?
5/11 02:36:09.187 [Guild] Tburke: But Julian’s point is key.
5/11 02:36:16.500 [2. Trade] Nchaabichih: libram
5/11 02:36:18.187 [Guild] Constances: in my own earlier ethnographic work, youth and young adults have relationships that span virtual and real quite naturally
5/11 02:36:25.937 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant 2H Weapon - Savagery 120g my mats….
5/11 02:36:25.937 Kandilgre has come online.
5/11 02:36:26.531 [2. Trade] Asmodius: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats 120g my mats….
5/11 02:36:39.156 Constances nods.
5/11 02:36:42.890 [Guild] Southerncal: Want to tackle what “real” may mean then?
5/11 02:36:44.171 Tiral points at Stronglykbul.
5/11 02:36:44.171 Tiral laughs at Stronglykbul.
5/11 02:36:48.546 Forthewin agrees with Constances.
5/11 02:36:50.953 Garaka’s Carnie is dismissed.
5/11 02:36:53.421 [2. Trade] Belf: LF enchanter that can do executioner i have mats tipping 20g pst
5/11 02:36:53.828 [Guild] Southerncal: ’twas as loaded a Q as I could make:)
5/11 02:37:04.968 [2. Trade] Holorezio: WTB librams PST if you have some
5/11 02:37:08.265 Arillea has gone offline.
5/11 02:37:11.750 [Guild] Taurhild: Can it not be a user divide? Heavy digital users vs light?
5/11 02:37:15.265 [Guild] Constances: guess I’d argue that by “real” most folks mean “consequential” in some way
5/11 02:37:17.015 Isenhand says: have we started yet?
5/11 02:37:21.375 [Guild] Profsmith: what about the impact of VW on *existing* real friendships/relationships?
5/11 02:37:22.046 Tiral shrugs. Who knows?
5/11 02:37:25.328 [Guild] Tburke: Ok, here’s one key thing that I think will come up again later, about consequential.
5/11 02:37:25.750 [Guild] Constances: taurhild, great point
5/11 02:37:30.562 [Guild] Augmentology: southercal i’ve just written on an extension of the Virtuality Continuum at augmentology.com, extending the notion to a _Reality Spectrum_?
5/11 02:37:39.734 Hypothesis has gone offline.
5/11 02:37:43.703 Chimeraco has gone offline.
5/11 02:37:43.703 [Guild] Tburke: I *do* think you can walk away from VW relationships.
5/11 02:37:56.390 [1. General] Maindora: anyone from Science here?
5/11 02:37:57.796 Forthewin agrees with Tburke.
5/11 02:37:58.484 [Guild] Tburke: In a way that physical, embodied, present relationships can be difficult to shed.
5/11 02:37:59.453 [Guild] Kvinesdal: Good point re: the distinctions of “real”. Do VW’s function as meaningful third places (in the Oldenburg sense)? We are in the post neighborhood bar era?
5/11 02:38:05.140 [1. General] Tiral: yep
5/11 02:38:06.781 [Guild] Taurhild: In my experience, unrelated to age, heavy users have more relationships through computers than light users
5/11 02:38:08.515 Callea has come online.
5/11 02:38:10.250 Chimeraco has come online.
5/11 02:38:12.109 [Guild] Adarel: one can also walk away from RL relationships
5/11 02:38:12.703 [Guild] Constances: differently than embodied relationships, tburke?
5/11 02:38:14.203 [1. General] Maindora: can i get a ginvite?
5/11 02:38:21.203 [Guild] Tburke: Yes.
5/11 02:38:23.406 Hypothesis has come online.
5/11 02:38:25.781 [Guild] Tburke: But not radically so.
5/11 02:38:30.062 [Guild] Estelan: it’s also important to remember that different people want different things and form different kinds of relationships in these worlds
5/11 02:38:33.656 Maindora has joined the guild.
5/11 02:38:37.156 [Guild] Alishya: only in that it’s easier to avoid the person afterwards.
5/11 02:38:37.609 [Guild] Maindora: thx
5/11 02:38:38.375 [2. Trade] Zstomper: wts Girdle of Gale Force
5/11 02:38:40.984 [Guild] Southerncal: Please let the panelists do the most here, folks. We’ll try to have time after for audience input
5/11 02:38:43.312 [Guild] Tburke: Alishya, exactly.
5/11 02:38:46.921 [Guild] Constances: the kids I work with dont really have access to unmoderated, unsupervised play spaces like my own generation had
5/11 02:38:54.437 [Guild] Alishya: It’s considerably different to /ignore someone or change your identity in the real world
5/11 02:38:57.406 Randomeis has gone offline.
5/11 02:38:58.125 Thralmart has gone offline.
5/11 02:39:05.265 [Guild] Constances: jenkins and others argue that online worlds like games (and facebook) are the new playgrounds
5/11 02:39:19.265 [Guild] Numbersix: I’d agree
5/11 02:39:27.500 [2. Trade] Leighthel: anyone interested in premade for AV?
5/11 02:39:34.281 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION #2: Do the values encoded into a space (think GTA or WoW) matter? Is anyone playing WoW going to become environmentally more aware (earthy themes among the Tauren and in quests) or racially insensitive (listening to any troll)?
5/11 02:40:01.093 Kionoto has gone offline.
5/11 02:40:16.062 [Guild] Tburke: Ok, here I think I’m a bit of an outlier, in that I question the tendency to overread the meanings of much of the content of WoW and similar spaces.
5/11 02:40:36.640 [Guild] Southerncal: Overread?
5/11 02:40:49.984 [Guild] Tburke: It’s not that they don’t have reference to the world, but I think some scholars tend to see far too tight a consequential mapping.
5/11 02:40:52.453 [2. Trade] Belf: LF enchanter that can do executioner i have mats tipping 20g pst
5/11 02:40:55.234 [Guild] Tburke: But I think this about most popular culture.
5/11 02:40:56.046 [Guild] Pleimisti: I thin they matter in the same way as with other cultural products: They give consumers clues as to what their culture does and doesn’t value and how.
5/11 02:40:58.390 [2. Trade] Beefslayer: LF1M RFK–ALL CLASSES WELCOME
5/11 02:41:09.140 [2. Trade] Darkmauler: is there a jeweler to cut this for me? Talasite?
5/11 02:41:14.890 [2. Trade] Borntoraise: lfg to do SH
5/11 02:41:16.515 Zomboni agrees with Pleimisti.
5/11 02:41:17.609 [Guild] Estelan: And there are different levels to value coding. For example, whether it’s blatant or something you discover in experimentation and trials (like figuring out that Caesar will always attack you unprovoked in Civ 4).
5/11 02:41:24.718 [Guild] Pleimisti: right. I don’t think there’s a special simulationist problem with games.
5/11 02:41:33.531 [2. Trade] Mihale: WTB good geared tank or exceptional healer for heroic BF and we’re gtg
5/11 02:41:44.593 [Guild] Computabull: Like much of the best modern art, WoW is morally ambiguous, on one level promoting loyalty to the group, and on another level suggesting to more sophisticated players that the group leadership is corrupt and does not deserve loyalty.
5/11 02:41:53.546 [2. Trade] Mamorica: Looking for someone able to summon me to the Botanica
5/11 02:42:00.468 Forthewin nods at Computabull.
5/11 02:42:02.906 [Guild] Southerncal: Since this is essentially a spin-off of “effects” thinking, how could you verify whether such things have an impact?
5/11 02:42:05.718 Rhiannonn has joined the raid group.
5/11 02:42:07.203 You dance with Catullus.
5/11 02:42:10.937 [Guild] Computabull: The concept of values altogether remains controversial in social science. My recent book, Across the Secular Abyss, shows that religious beliefs have few consequences in the real world, especially outside strong group control.
5/11 02:42:13.843 Shahkh has gone offline.
5/11 02:42:20.203 [Guild] Atratas: why would we play if it isn’t meaningful in someway?
5/11 02:42:32.671 [Guild] Tburke: I think media effects arguments in any medium are very hard to measure or quantify in a satisfying way.
5/11 02:42:37.187 Kandilgre waves.
5/11 02:42:42.984 Zomboni nods at Tburke.
5/11 02:42:44.531 [Guild] Tiral: Some play because we are ether bored, some one told us about it, or have nothing better to do.
5/11 02:42:48.250 [Guild] Tburke: Most of the literature that tries to do so makes very big claims from very small effects sizes.
5/11 02:43:01.734 [Guild] Southerncal: And if you had a big sample?
5/11 02:43:06.156 [2. Trade] Jayaballard: lf jc to cut glowing nightseye, lf tailor to craft belt of blasting, have mats and tipping for both, pst
5/11 02:43:12.312 [Guild] Pleimisti: But Dmitri you’ve done more empirical work on this than any of us, what’s your take?
5/11 02:43:13.921 [Guild] Estelan: Dmitri - I think your paper on cultivation theory from gaming points in at least one wat to study these effects, but they are hard to study …
5/11 02:43:19.765 [2. Trade] Borntoraise: LFG SH
5/11 02:43:21.375 [Guild] Tburke: Still wouldn’t help–there’s an epistemological problem. Meaning isn’t easily quantified.
5/11 02:43:23.046 Inductive has come online.
5/11 02:43:24.687 [2. Trade] Holorezio: Whats Idol of Death used for?
5/11 02:43:30.203 [Guild] Pleimisti: jinx Estelan
5/11 02:43:38.625 [Guild] Estelan:
5/11 02:43:43.000 [Guild] Southerncal: Nah, I’m moderating I’ll post my research links on the wiki
5/11 02:43:54.531 [2. Trade] Xstalker: any one selling assasins blade
5/11 02:43:55.453 [Guild] Southerncal: I’m here to poke you all
5/11 02:43:57.468 [2. Trade] Jayaballard: tier 2.5 gear I believe, part of a quest to get it
5/11 02:43:59.859 Amulii has joined the raid group.
5/11 02:44:03.453 [Guild] Southerncal: So:
5/11 02:44:05.671 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 3: What is the potential for doing scientific research in WoW or other virtual worlds, relevant to the real world?
5/11 02:44:06.515 Zomboni pokes Southerncal. Hey!
5/11 02:44:08.281 [Guild] Constances: I study games and learning and - yes- I think you learn more from a game than from tv. so, yes, I think they’re special in terms of the systems they allow us to develop embodied empathy for
5/11 02:44:10.015 Numbersix has been poked
5/11 02:44:10.500 [2. Trade] Longcut: 200 fel iron bars for sale
5/11 02:44:11.968 Shahkh has come online.
5/11 02:44:13.265 Phugue has come online.
5/11 02:44:13.265 Tburke pokes Southerncal. Hey!
5/11 02:44:24.156 [Guild] Constances: sorry that was for previous Q
5/11 02:44:27.140 [2. Trade] Kuula: WTS Pants of Living Growth Cheap, PST me.
5/11 02:44:33.640 [Guild] Southerncal: s’ok, you can keep going w/it
5/11 02:44:45.328 [Guild] Constances: ^_^*
5/11 02:44:45.328 Kandilgre bursts into dance.
5/11 02:44:45.640 [2. Trade] Clisen: Mage LF 2v2 partner
5/11 02:44:47.406 [Guild] Pleimisti: yeah finish i wanna hear
5/11 02:44:48.796 Tiral bursts into dance.
5/11 02:44:59.546 [Guild] Southerncal: So if the game can have more meaning, can it then have stronger “effects” than TV?
5/11 02:45:04.203 Yezidin waves at Kawaî.
5/11 02:45:05.406 [2. Trade] Stronglykbul: LF Chanter for Boots:Dexterity, have mats, tip 20g, pst
5/11 02:45:07.140 [Guild] Pleimisti: “embodied empathy for…”?
5/11 02:45:07.375 [2. Trade] Sakasi: Any Tanks up for Wailing Caverns?
5/11 02:45:09.531 [2. Trade] Okkervil: WTB Ace of Beasts
5/11 02:45:14.437 Zomboni nods at Southerncal.
5/11 02:45:14.437 Kawaî waves at Yezidin.
5/11 02:45:16.562 [Guild] Estelan: well empirically the TV effects are very small, so it’s not a very high bar
5/11 02:45:17.453 [Guild] Constances: well, I think some who argue that games are designed experiences with particular value for learning want to have their cake and eat it too
5/11 02:45:24.312 [Guild] Tburke: If by that you don’t mean the behavioralist sense of effect, yes.
5/11 02:45:30.453 [Guild] Taurhild: I think the problem with the last question is that you assume that digital worlds are not real.
5/11 02:45:37.593 [Guild] Constances: they want to claim that they’re powerful contexts for learning… but not for learning the ill values folks freak about
5/11 02:45:43.140 [2. Trade] Clisen: LF priest/druid for 3v3
5/11 02:45:43.531 [Guild] Constances: like violence, or sexism etc
5/11 02:45:48.375 [Guild] Taurhild: They are part of the real world, so of course they tell us about the real world
5/11 02:45:52.359 Nir yells: What is happening over here???
5/11 02:45:56.906 [Guild] Augmentology: taur>agreed
5/11 02:46:00.656 [2. Trade] Huntindawg: can someone link me cobrahide leg armor?
5/11 02:46:05.265 Forthewin nods at Constances.
5/11 02:46:05.765 Zomboni ponders Constances’s actions.
5/11 02:46:08.656 [Guild] Southerncal: right, so will a young kid playing WoW think that Jamaicans are all lazy trolls?
5/11 02:46:14.296 [2. Trade] Warlockjack: [Cobrahide Leg Armor]
5/11 02:46:14.296 [Guild] Tburke: No.
5/11 02:46:22.390 Zomboni laughs at Constances.
5/11 02:46:33.078 [Guild] Southerncal: No stereotype formation at all?
5/11 02:46:37.437 [Guild] Alishya: assuming they even put the link together of troll=Jamacian.
5/11 02:46:38.812 [Guild] Constances: well, parents and teachers fear they will.
5/11 02:46:41.796 [Guild] Atratas: aren’t we talking mroe about the values associated with predictability and assured progress?
5/11 02:46:47.203 [2. Trade] Huntindawg: go pvp some more jack
5/11 02:46:50.125 Forthewin nods at Constances.
5/11 02:46:52.546 [2. Trade] Warlockjack: lol
5/11 02:46:58.921 [Guild] Constances: i’d argue that most media consumers are far smarter than we give them credit as
5/11 02:47:02.109 Tiral bursts into dance.
5/11 02:47:10.250 [2. Trade] Belf: LF enchanter that can do executioner i have mats tipping 20g pst
5/11 02:47:12.781 [Guild] Shugar: why do we find the Jamaican one offensive, butnot the dwarven speech? It’s just as stereotyped
5/11 02:47:13.156 Nir says: Hi want to buy an enchant?
5/11 02:47:18.906 [Guild] Henchbeard: and trolls in wow arent such simple creatures either.
5/11 02:47:21.828 [Guild] Tburke: Not because of WoW by itself. Stereotypes in that sense are massively diffuse, open for constant reuse. They’re like little cyphers embedded throughout the whole of culture.
5/11 02:47:21.828 Nir says: Hi want to buy an enchant?
5/11 02:47:23.921 [2. Trade] Huntindawg: can someone link me mats for Nethercobra Leg Armor plz
5/11 02:47:33.203 [Guild] Pleimisti: right. and smarter than educators who want them to learn tacked-on lessons from games give them credit for.
5/11 02:47:38.531 [Guild] Constances: they often interpret the representation of reflective not of reality but the designers interpretation of reality — about the narrativizing of experience, not experience itself
5/11 02:47:46.468 [Guild] Augmentology: constance> the idea of media consumers is essentially outmoded now. “prosumers” engaging in a “participatory culture” is more relevant perhaps?
5/11 02:47:46.875 [Guild] Zomboni: (Thelial): Is it not significant that much of the meaning is derived between players, not the game itself as media?
5/11 02:47:47.765 Isenhand says: tell Nir I think everyone is busy
5/11 02:47:56.609 [2. Trade] Mighty: Pattern: Nethercobra Leg Armor
5/11 02:47:57.000 [Guild] Southerncal: Isn’t there a weighted effect when the trope gets repeated over and over?
5/11 02:48:01.359 [Guild] Pleimisti: when it’s really the game mechanics taht do the most teaching/training, if anything
5/11 02:48:13.906 [Guild] Constances: shgugar, we tend to find offensive stereotypes that are coupled with disproportionate access to power
5/11 02:48:17.937 [2. Trade] Deirdrea: WTS Enchant Gloves - Major Strength 10G in ORG
5/11 02:48:21.671 [Guild] Tburke: cf. “procedural literacy”
5/11 02:48:27.109 [2. Trade] Kuula: WTF, Runecloth is double the cost of Netherweave <_<
5/11 02:48:28.703 [Guild] Taurhild: Sometimes, when a trope is constantly repeated, it becomes a parody of itself, and is revealed as ridiculous
5/11 02:48:36.562 [Guild] Tburke: Exactly, Taurhild.
5/11 02:48:41.968 Jaywoo has joined the guild.
5/11 02:48:50.218 [2. Trade] Sarchael: Shhhh. now they will triple it. D:
5/11 02:48:50.609 [2. Trade] Wallow: who wanted the 12 agi enchant to boots? lol sorry
5/11 02:48:53.687 [Guild] Nise: I doubt it will form stereotypes, but probably it would just reflects the steretypes a group has outside WoW
5/11 02:48:58.890 [Guild] Constances: yes, i agree with prosumer idea, to the most radical extreme in fact
5/11 02:49:08.546 [Guild] Southerncal: You all are giving audiences a lot of credit. Does anyone have a contrarian POV here?
5/11 02:49:08.546 [2. Trade] Kuula: Goddamn PRE-TBC items!
5/11 02:49:11.171 [Guild] Iamlegion: Isn’t this a bit off the topic of scientific research?
5/11 02:49:14.968 [Guild] Augmentology: instead of thinking of the divide of real/virtual, i’d suggest an elastic extension: [Geophysical]<—-—[Cartesian]–-—–[Mixed]–-—–>[Synthetic]
5/11 02:49:26.437 [Guild] Constances: sorry iam, i was still answering question #2.
5/11 02:49:38.093 [Guild] Southerncal: Yep, we’re still on #@
5/11 02:49:40.109 Zomboni agrees with Constances.
5/11 02:49:41.031 [Guild] Southerncal: #2
5/11 02:49:47.843 [Guild] Iamlegion: soory
5/11 02:49:52.796 [Guild] Constances: ^_^*
5/11 02:49:54.406 Forthewin laughs at Iamlegion.
5/11 02:49:58.218 [Guild] Constances: `
5/11 02:50:02.562 [Guild] Tburke: It’s not that culture doesn’t shape consciousness and therefore action in ways that audiences aren’t fully in control of.
5/11 02:50:14.843 Zomboni nods at Tburke.
5/11 02:50:16.031 [Guild] Tburke: It’s that the loops involved are not simple behavioralist ones.
5/11 02:50:17.328 [2. Trade] Wallow: just farm tyrr’s hand and get like 200 an hour
5/11 02:50:21.343 Akigain whispers: what about adding phenomenlogical inquiry to that extension
5/11 02:50:21.750 [Guild] Constances: indeed
5/11 02:50:26.703 [Guild] Southerncal: OK. Moving on.
5/11 02:50:30.234 [Guild] Augmentology: Tburke>agreed
5/11 02:50:30.234 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 3: What is the potential for doing scientific research in WoW or other virtual worlds, relevant to the real world?
5/11 02:50:31.718 Thralmart has come online.
5/11 02:50:32.468 Tiral falls asleep. Zzzzzzz.
5/11 02:50:42.953 Forthewin slaps Tiral across the face. Ouch!
5/11 02:50:43.687 [Guild] Tburke: My first angle of approach with virtual worlds is always to treat them as “accidental social simulations”. They’re richer and more complex than any model in normal social science. But they’re simple enough to study in ways the world at large cannot be
5/11 02:50:47.312 [Guild] Southerncal: As in “stuff that matters”
5/11 02:50:47.718 Telmura ’s head asplodes.
5/11 02:50:48.218 Rhiannonn kneels before Amulii.
5/11 02:50:48.734 [Guild] Tburke: Models in social science are predictable. Scholars can make them do what scholars want them to do. Virtual worlds aren’t predictable: they have all the organic character of human society.
5/11 02:50:51.531 [Guild] Tburke: So that’s my answer to whether research in World of Warcraft is useful for understanding the real world. Of course it is. (and vice-versa). Yes, with very firm limits, but yes nevertheless.
5/11 02:50:52.281 To Akigain: sure. i’ve fleshed out the spectrum as well, just can’t cram it all in here;)
5/11 02:50:53.640 Tiral falls asleep. Zzzzzzz.
5/11 02:50:55.546 [2. Trade] Huntindawg: LF Xmute CD’s for Primal Water to Air. pst will tip
5/11 02:50:59.890 [Guild] Tburke: That’s the research agenda.
5/11 02:51:00.296 [Guild] Estelan: I’m more interested in applications to virtual worlds rather than generalizations to physical interactions or the physical world. In this space, I’m fascinated by how virtual worlds let us break rules of representation and social interaction …
5/11 02:51:00.687 Akigain whispers: i hear you
5/11 02:51:01.093 [Guild] Estelan: In the physical world, I can only maintain eye contact with one person at a time, but in a virtual space like this, I could potentially hack the code such that my avatar is maintaining eye contact with everyone in the audience at the same time …
5/11 02:51:01.093 Zomboni claps excitedly for Tburke.
5/11 02:51:01.484 Inductive pokes Tiral. Hey!
5/11 02:51:02.015 [Guild] Estelan: Or what happens when I perceive my avatar to be a gnome but everyone else sees me as a night elf? Is it the behavioral confirmation or the self perception that wins out? …
5/11 02:51:06.046 Yezidin says: lokthar! due to the fact that i’m a european guest char - is the conference on the guild chat only?
5/11 02:51:16.000 [2. Trade] Maclachlan: anybody on from guild “SUBSTANCE”
5/11 02:51:20.593 [2. Trade] Borntoraise: LFG SH
5/11 02:51:24.406 Sprye has gone offline.
5/11 02:51:28.156 [2. Trade] Bbqhotpocket: /WHO SUBSTANCE
5/11 02:51:28.750 [2. Trade] Amanndil: That guild is gone.
5/11 02:51:31.984 Shugar says: a bit slower when spamming the macros please…
5/11 02:51:38.328 Tiral laughs.
5/11 02:51:38.609 [2. Trade] Longcut: wts 200 fel iron bars
5/11 02:51:50.140 Yezidin has joined the raid group.
5/11 02:51:55.390 Tiral pokes Kawaî. Hey!
5/11 02:52:00.046 Yezidin says: thx:)
5/11 02:52:01.640 [Raid] Passera: it’s only on the guild chat
5/11 02:52:02.062 [Guild] Tburke: sorry, we both tried to tank the mob there with the macros
5/11 02:52:08.265 [Guild] Southerncal:
5/11 02:52:11.093 [Guild] Estelan:
5/11 02:52:11.500 [Guild] Augmentology: TBurke> i respectfully disagree with ur assessment regarding synthetic worlds as simple in comparison
5/11 02:52:28.906 Kawaî waves at Kandilgre.
5/11 02:52:36.437 [Guild] Tburke: Simple’s a potentially bad word, yes.
5/11 02:52:43.578 [Guild] Southerncal: How about the “stuff that matters” bit. Can research in WoW or other VWs actually improve the human condition *offline*
5/11 02:52:47.093 [Guild] Tburke: Bounded?
5/11 02:52:59.781 Tiral falls asleep. Zzzzzzz.
5/11 02:53:08.421 Kandilgre says: you guys here for the conference?
5/11 02:53:10.546 [Guild] Constances: it already has, southern, at least for the peeps I study
5/11 02:53:16.390 [Guild] Augmentology: TBurke> alternate perhaps. i prefer augmented:)
5/11 02:53:16.406 Kawaî says: yes!
5/11 02:53:16.406 Forthewin nods at Kandilgre.
5/11 02:53:21.984 Zomboni agrees with Constances.
5/11 02:53:23.812 Kandilgre points at Yezidin.
5/11 02:53:23.812 [Guild] Southerncal: Do tell, Constance
5/11 02:53:27.250 Yezidin says: yeah^^ but unfortunately only with guest accounts
5/11 02:53:34.703 Kawaî says: the problem is: we only have a guest account, because we are from europe
5/11 02:53:49.765 Yezidin says: so we can not join any gild or group:(
5/11 02:53:52.781 [2. Trade] Curnguz: 328resil MS war (33% crit, sword spec) LF Partner for 2v2, prefer healing-type class with >300resil
5/11 02:54:02.031 [1. General] Enzya: “Death and Eternity” is a new, mature guild 18+ yrs old recruiting all levels. We are a social and knowledgeable leveling guild. Friendly and talkative. We have a Bank and Tabard. Pst for invite.
5/11 02:54:09.921 [Guild] Constances: i think ur asking a different question tho - ur asking for us to reflect on the ways that a social simulation like wow etc can be predictive for offline phenomena… yes?
5/11 02:54:26.296 [2. Trade] Elluria: LF a tank and healer for H SP.
5/11 02:54:31.734 Kandilgre bursts into dance.
5/11 02:54:32.515 [Guild] Southerncal: I am
5/11 02:54:33.328 [Guild] Constances: example: does crisis management here help us understand crisis management offline
5/11 02:54:37.234 [2. Trade] Freeform: Lf enchanter with +15 fire resist to cloak, pst
5/11 02:54:38.859 Yezidin says: nise, that would be great!
5/11 02:54:41.187 Gyges bursts into dance.
5/11 02:54:51.343 [Guild] Augmentology: Southerncal> in terms of examining the base functionality of a community formed in a creche space, i’d say yes:)
5/11 02:54:53.437 [Guild] Southerncal: Correct, or leadership, learning, networking, etc.
5/11 02:55:03.109 [Guild] Tburke: I think the answer to that question is yes. First because understanding how and why things happen in the social or political or economic world always helps us to act.
5/11 02:55:12.062 Gonzorina whispers: creche space?
5/11 02:55:13.546 Yezidin says: can you put me on your f-list so i can give you my email?
5/11 02:55:16.484 Demena has come online.
5/11 02:55:17.000 [Guild] Constances: indeed
5/11 02:55:17.796 Yezidin says: nise^^
5/11 02:55:29.968 Zomboni is curious what Constances is up to.
5/11 02:55:32.031 [2. Trade] Borntoraise: buying 3 motes of fire, 2 arcane dust and 4 fel iron bars
5/11 02:55:36.593 [Guild] Tburke: But I also think we can even test or “play” with some working ideas about action or policy.
5/11 02:55:37.000 Trickshot has come online.
5/11 02:55:53.906 [Guild] Southerncal: Can you assume that the two scenarios match, though? It’s not as if the risks line up.
5/11 02:55:55.296 [2. Trade] Tanazenbin: NowWelcome to www.wow4s.net We offer cheapest WOW gold and powerleveling service.Register now on our website 500G only take $11.32(1000G only take $ 21.98), we can deliver in 1-24hours.powerlevel from 1-60 only takes $169.18(guarantee 400G and a Lv40 mou
5/11 02:56:00.031 Forthewin nods at Tburke.
5/11 02:56:02.296 Zomboni nods at Tburke.
5/11 02:56:02.765 [Guild] Taurhild: I think we need to be careful about drawing conclusions from one performative space to another.
5/11 02:56:05.953 [Guild] Maindora: like 2nd life playing with economic policy?
5/11 02:56:12.421 [2. Trade] Baynarr: WTT 2 Arcane Tome for 2 Fel Armaments Pst
5/11 02:56:16.125 [Guild] Southerncal: For my social scientist brethren out there, this is the generalizability/external validity issue
5/11 02:56:17.859 [Guild] Pleimisti: constance can you give a specific case or two of such offline “improvements?”
5/11 02:56:27.093 [Guild] Augmentology: agreed southern
5/11 02:56:30.125 [Guild] Tburke: They’re not going to match. But then they don’t match even in real life: we form policy outside of the world, and it often goes wrong because of it.
5/11 02:56:30.375 [2. Trade] Longcut: wts 200 fel iron bars for 300G
5/11 02:56:30.390 [2. Trade] Baynarr: WTT 58 Sunfury Signet for 58 Mark of Sargeras Pst
5/11 02:56:30.390 Zomboni nods at Southerncal.
5/11 02:56:52.234 Oisini has gone offline.
5/11 02:56:55.375 [Guild] Southerncal: Example: A problem for civic society offline is a lack of intergration of groups for diversity of ideas. How do you fix that with VW research?
5/11 02:57:01.203 [Guild] Taurhild: This is not a laboratory for any other environment, this is an unique communication situation.
5/11 02:57:01.203 Elitekiller’s Locoface is dismissed.
5/11 02:57:02.000 [2. Trade] Baynarr: WTB Port To Shatt Pst
5/11 02:57:09.218 Gyges bursts into dance.
5/11 02:57:09.656 Elitekiller has gone offline.
5/11 02:57:13.656 Kandilgre gently pats Whiskers the Rat.
5/11 02:57:21.406 Oisini has come online.
5/11 02:57:27.140 [Guild] Constances: well, i tend to use games under a “gateway drug” model. so intellectual practices here give entree into intellectual practices elsewhere.
5/11 02:57:29.500 [1. General] Enzya: “Death and Eternity” is a new, mature guild 18+ yrs old recruiting all levels. We are a social and knowledgeable leveling guild. Friendly and talkative. We have a Bank and Tabard. Pst for invite.
5/11 02:57:31.265 [2. Trade] Otrimino: but i can do that for only 15 bucks and have my epic mount by then D: you powerlevlers slack
5/11 02:57:35.875 [Guild] Atratas: at risk of sounding like a teacher - thre are clear transferrable skills
5/11 02:57:40.828 Crucinogen has come online.
5/11 02:57:42.437 [Guild] Tburke: No situation is so unique that you can’t generalize in some way from it. But it’s a mistake to assume that social science has to be on a relentless drive to generalize.
5/11 02:57:45.437 [2. Trade] Otrimino: learn2 quest better?
5/11 02:57:50.484 [Guild] Southerncal: That’s Q5, Atratas
5/11 02:57:55.109 [2. Trade] Koronennaur: naah…l2daily
5/11 02:58:02.468 [Guild] Daiti: In “Last Child in the Woods” it’s suggested that kids who don’t go outside to play have a higher risk of ADHD, but looking a a natural veiw (Say- trees out a window) relaxes them and helps. Where do you think virtual worlds (natural vistas like WoW) fall?
5/11 02:58:13.937 [2. Trade] Otrimino: at 60 theres not many dailys if any other then pvp
5/11 02:58:21.875 [Guild] Pleimisti: Yeah i’m with Nick on this — the more interesting research problem is understanding VWs themselves as social spaces
5/11 02:58:31.734 Demena waves at you.
5/11 02:58:32.546 [Guild] Daiti: (Sorry, accidental hit on the enter key)
5/11 02:58:39.968 Zomboni agrees with Pleimisti.
5/11 02:58:39.968 [Guild] Southerncal: S’ok, but send Qs via me
5/11 02:58:47.921 [Guild] Augmentology: daiti> ur raising the issue of engagement/immersion vs reflection/introspection?
5/11 02:58:49.625 [Guild] Constances: as long as we understand them as part of the everyday fabric that matters I’m good w/that plei
5/11 02:58:51.234 [Guild] Estelan: and I think splitting it all up into online vs. offline is strange given that so much of our interactions happen in mediated spaces already
5/11 02:58:59.890 [2. Trade] Otrimino: my point is 168 bucks for something you can do in a month for free is dumb specially with patch 2.3 changes
5/11 02:59:03.203 Stronglykbul lies down before Telmura.
5/11 02:59:08.031 Telmura bursts into dance.
5/11 02:59:08.437 [Guild] Southerncal: Good point. Shifting gears a bit:
5/11 02:59:10.046 [Guild] Tburke: I think the most interesting way to look at policy formation or action in VWs is to watch what developers do historically.
5/11 02:59:19.093 [2. Trade] Curnguz: 168bucks is like a day of work
5/11 02:59:21.125 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 4: Why would anyone gender swap?
5/11 02:59:27.062 [2. Trade] Curnguz: a month, or a day of work
5/11 02:59:31.265 Dramanite has joined the guild.
5/11 02:59:34.187 [Guild] Augmentology: exactly est.
5/11 02:59:34.984 [Guild] Constances: why WOULDNT someone genderswap?
5/11 02:59:37.890 [Guild] Tburke: An oldie but goodie!
5/11 02:59:44.265 Forthewin laughs at Constances.
5/11 02:59:44.859 Zomboni laughs at Constances.
5/11 02:59:45.750 Gonzorina nods.
5/11 02:59:47.437 [Guild] Taurhild: absolutly Constance!
5/11 02:59:53.609 [Guild] Constances: sorry but dam Id love to swap gender for a few days.
5/11 03:00:00.437 [Guild] Thralmart: <gender swaps to use the name “Crossblesser” it’s humour
5/11 03:00:02.328 [Guild] Constances: so i find it curious that more dont
5/11 03:00:05.171 [Guild] Estelan: There’s a consistent gender difference in gender swapping. From my survey data, men are 3-5 times more likely to gender-bend than women. So in a game like WoW where this is compounded with a heavy RL gender skew to begin with …
5/11 03:00:05.968 Zomboni snickers at Constances.
5/11 03:00:06.765 [Guild] Estelan: about 1 out of every 2 female avatars is played by a man, whereas only 1 out of every 100 male avatars is played by a woman …
5/11 03:00:11.593 [Guild] Maggiemae: but very few women play male characters so it’s not that simple really
5/11 03:00:14.828 [2. Trade] Curnguz: if people want instant gratification, and make $20/hr, then $168 is cheap
5/11 03:00:19.750 [Guild] Computabull: The concept “gender swap” seems to assume that WoW characters are avatars. For most adult players, they are not. Rather they are often puppets, toys, friends, agents. In chat, people say “my lock, my pally, my shammy, my toon.” My!
5/11 03:00:22.171 [Guild] Estelan: Understanding that gender difference is key
5/11 03:00:22.171 Crucinogen has joined the raid group.
5/11 03:00:24.578 [Guild] Augmentology: is adopting a different gender casing via an avie/toon really considered gender swapping? i’d beg to differ
5/11 03:00:33.625 Jalena has come online.
5/11 03:00:41.156 Thralmart’s pet begins eating a Mutton Chop.
5/11 03:00:41.578 Nise agrees with Maggiemae.
5/11 03:00:43.281 [Guild] Perplextar: question
5/11 03:00:44.578 [Guild] Tburke: In a way, I think the most interesting thing about that question is to read the stock responses that appear in player discourse about this. (Some of which we’re echoing here).
5/11 03:00:53.953 [Guild] Atratas: depends how you play your character
5/11 03:00:58.296 [Guild] Southerncal: Whatever we call it, can anyone explain the massive ratio difference in swapping between the two genders?
5/11 03:01:15.578 [Guild] Maggiemae: yes, men like to look at females characters - that’s what they say in my interviews
5/11 03:01:18.593 [Guild] Augmentology: atratas> exactly
5/11 03:01:26.750 [2. Trade] Eastery: if that is all you make lol then you need a better job almost 300$ a day here
5/11 03:01:26.750 Forthewin cheers at Maggiemae!
5/11 03:01:29.156 Megatoncito has gone offline.
5/11 03:01:29.937 [Guild] Zedediah: Excuse me, is there a difference between gender swapping in RP vs non-RP environments?
5/11 03:01:31.562 [Guild] Estelan: They either say it’s because female avatars are treated better (thus an advantage in game) or because they’d rather look at a woman’s behind for 20 hours a week rather than a man’s behind. <end>
5/11 03:01:36.015 [Guild] Tburke: Right, Maggie: the old “if I have to look at an ass, I’d prefer a female one”.
5/11 03:01:36.500 [Guild] Southerncal: Do the female players then not like to look at the male avs?
5/11 03:01:45.953 [Guild] Computabull: Ray Kurzweil no more thinks he is a woman, like his avatar Ramona, than kids think they are rotund Italian plumbers like the Mario they play with. Some young males may prefer female characters because no girl is willing to be their friend.
5/11 03:01:46.437 Tburke flexes at Southerncal. Oooooh so strong!
5/11 03:01:47.125 [Guild] Charolais: female characters also recieve gifts
5/11 03:01:48.765 [Guild] Pleimisti: well there’s also a rat-choice explanation: more ingame advantage for female chars
5/11 03:01:50.890 [Guild] Ophelie: The male avs in WoW are ugly.
5/11 03:01:51.281 [2. Trade] Curnguz: oh snap i got totally owned…wait, but that’s not “all i make”, i was giving an example
5/11 03:01:53.109 [Guild] Noralore: I think men like to experiment with ‘being’ women
5/11 03:01:59.312 [Guild] Ophelie: To be brief and blunt.
5/11 03:02:00.921 [Guild] Maindora: i know women who prefer to play males so they won’t be hit on
5/11 03:02:05.078 [Guild] Pleimisti: OK, Estelan beat me that time.
5/11 03:02:05.312 [Guild] Atratas: some pple actively genderswap - pass as it might be callled
5/11 03:02:06.656 Saraswathi nods at Ophelie.
5/11 03:02:10.406 [Guild] Constances: we need to differentiate between gamers’ theories of genderswapping and gamers’ motivations for it methinks
5/11 03:02:12.296 [2. Trade] Skrum: Only 300 a day? you are low class
5/11 03:02:13.593 [Guild] Maindora: they want to avoid that “in-game advantage”
5/11 03:02:15.234 [Guild] Perplextar: I have seen statistics saying that in Entropia Universe there are mano _women_ genderswapping, as many as men
5/11 03:02:17.843 [Guild] Maggiemae: hey the night elf men are cute
5/11 03:02:25.078 Nise agrees with Maindora.
5/11 03:02:25.687 [Guild] Tburke: Yes, that’s right, Constance.
5/11 03:02:26.484 [Guild] Augmentology: southern> alternate gender adoption may have to do with added engagement within an perceived boundaryless arena?
5/11 03:02:29.203 [2. Trade] Driath: I get paid in pie. You both lose. Next topic.
5/11 03:02:36.015 [2. Trade] Clockwork: I want paid in pie!!
5/11 03:02:39.546 [Guild] Thoguht: Different with RP servers?
5/11 03:02:42.359 [2. Trade] Curnguz: when come back bring pie
5/11 03:02:46.203 [2. Trade] Zordi: iswear to god horde sucks at defence
5/11 03:02:57.468 [2. Trade] Daragorian: D wha?
5/11 03:03:00.156 [Guild] Thralmart: how many people here are currently gender swapped?
5/11 03:03:03.484 [Guild] Southerncal: I’m finding that RP doesn’t happen any more or less on RP servers than others. Very odd, but solid finding.
5/11 03:03:06.515 [Guild] Saraswathi: but maggiemae, the male avatars in wow are definitely not based on women’s idealized views of men in the same way that the reverse is true
5/11 03:03:07.312 [2. Trade] Zordi: fucking wsg
5/11 03:03:11.171 Grimflower waves at Telmura.
5/11 03:03:11.546 [2. Trade] Ramalus: they dont suck at D they just rarely listen to D up in the first place
5/11 03:03:13.171 [2. Trade] Zordi: and or ab
5/11 03:03:13.562 [2. Trade] Curnguz: Mature guild 18+? That sounds like you’re porn
5/11 03:03:21.718 [Guild] Ealphaba: i think the swapping may also have something to do with the amount of time men in general spend trying to figure out what women want, and how they think
5/11 03:03:23.015 [2. Trade] Painmanager: You’re looking for good Defense players at 1 in the afternoon?
5/11 03:03:26.234 Gonzorina raises her hand in the air.
5/11 03:03:33.796 [2. Trade] Shini: the internet is for porn!
5/11 03:03:35.968 [2. Trade] Borntoraise: lfg for SH
5/11 03:03:37.203 [Guild] Computabull: You might as well ask about “race swapping.” Tauren and Trolls seem to represent Native Americans and Afro-Caribbeans, respectively.
5/11 03:03:40.593 [Guild] Thoguht: Ok then… diff with RPers?
5/11 03:03:41.812 Tburke is curious about Saraswathi’s view of what idealized male forms are for women.
5/11 03:03:41.812 [2. Trade] Daragorian: AFK’rs r better at D then most
5/11 03:03:43.718 [Guild] Estelan: Interesting point Sara …
5/11 03:03:46.187 [2. Trade] Driath: WTB: Essence of Earth. a bunch if ya got. pst.
5/11 03:03:51.375 [2. Trade] Daragorian: least they in FR
5/11 03:03:52.500 [Guild] Constances: hey i <3 the male dwarfs but I still dont play one. there are serious gender differences in relationship to avatar I would hypothesize
5/11 03:03:55.390 [Guild] Jusdafacs: Considering there’s supposed to be a lot less women than men in these games, could that be the source of the difference?
5/11 03:03:57.890 Shugar says: I’m species-swapped already, gender is the least of my concerns…
5/11 03:04:06.562 [Guild] Constances: lol jusda
5/11 03:04:06.953 Telmura raises hand for gender swapping.
5/11 03:04:08.765 Forthewin nods at Saraswathi.
5/11 03:04:13.890 Zomboni laughs.
5/11 03:04:17.125 [2. Trade] Delicate: in AH Garona: A Study on Stealth and Treachery for Rogues!
5/11 03:04:20.734 [Guild] Perplextar: I am a normal Euro, a Tauren was my automatic 1st choice upon reading the description
5/11 03:04:25.093 [Guild] Zedediah: Might i point out the lack of females among “ugly” races
5/11 03:04:25.859 [Guild] Charolais: but when the avatar is a cow, it has little to do with appearances.
5/11 03:04:31.312 [2. Trade] Delicate: in AH Lightforge Belt Tanglewood Staff
5/11 03:04:40.390 [Guild] Maindora: yeah, nobody plays female dwarves
5/11 03:04:45.703 [Guild] Demena: My main is an orc female. (I’m female RL, too.)
5/11 03:04:46.093 [Guild] Thralmart: women do
5/11 03:04:48.328 [Guild] Jusdafacs: I did!
5/11 03:04:48.343 [Guild] Garaka: I do
5/11 03:04:50.203 [Guild] Southerncal: OK, next topic:
5/11 03:04:51.843 [Guild] Saraswathi: i did
5/11 03:04:52.562 [2. Trade] Thegato: WTS Lunacy Deck Crystalblade of the Draenei Legion Crown of the Prophet, pst
5/11 03:04:53.343 [Guild] Zomboni: (Thelial): You just can’t tell
5/11 03:04:54.343 [2. Trade] Zuel: WTS 3 stacks of Netherweave Cloth
5/11 03:04:54.359 [Guild] Madrone: my first char was a female dwarf
5/11 03:04:55.937 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 5: I’ve heard that games can be good for learning, but can anyone really learn anything important in WoW? Is there transfer?
5/11 03:05:00.562 [Guild] Boscotore: There are female dwarves?
5/11 03:05:00.968 [Guild] Alishya: Well, in real life, I’m transgendered male to female, and I exclusively play female characters.. does that count as being genderswapped or not?
5/11 03:05:01.796 [Guild] Augmentology: maindora> the ratio seems low, agreed
5/11 03:05:03.531 [Guild] Tburke: I know who should answer this one.
5/11 03:05:04.109 [Guild] Maggiemae: there is one female dwarf in one of my guilds
5/11 03:05:06.218 Gizsela says: to get back to rw/vw relation, how is the ratio in sex conversions femal >male vs male>female
5/11 03:05:06.703 [2. Trade] Otrimino: WTB lockpicking
5/11 03:05:09.031 [Guild] Noralore: I have female dwarf named Baubo
5/11 03:05:10.218 [Guild] Constances: …… memmemememe pick me!
5/11 03:05:13.890 [Guild] Constances: ^_^*
5/11 03:05:18.000 [Guild] Pleimisti: paging Constance
5/11 03:05:19.234 [Guild] Southerncal: Please keep the typing down, folks.
5/11 03:05:19.968 [Guild] Estelan: lol
5/11 03:05:23.312 [Guild] Constances: ummm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yes, yes people learn
5/11 03:05:24.937 Tburke cheers at Constances!
5/11 03:05:31.890 [Guild] Southerncal: Constance really wants to type here
5/11 03:05:32.671 [2. Trade] Thegato: WTS Bolt of Runecloth Bolt of Mageweave, pst
5/11 03:05:36.390 [Guild] Constances: now as to data:
5/11 03:05:36.875 [Guild] Demena: Certainly people can learn economic skills within a game like WoW.
5/11 03:06:01.546 Nise agrees with Demena.
5/11 03:06:03.640 Zomboni is curious what Constances is up to.
5/11 03:06:04.046 [Guild] Southerncal: /braces for data
5/11 03:06:07.281 [Guild] Demena: My nine-year-old has learned quite a bit from buying and selling in the auction house.
5/11 03:06:10.593 Forthewin laughs at Southerncal.
5/11 03:06:11.484 [Guild] Réjean: please let the panalists speak
5/11 03:06:18.640 [Guild] Constances: Ive focused mostly on informal science, computational literacy, digital & traditional literacies
5/11 03:06:32.734 [Guild] Constances: theres some compenlling findings, I wont bore u with them all
5/11 03:06:35.781 [Guild] Constances: but…
5/11 03:06:51.062 [Guild] Constances: on analysis, 86% of forum chatter = social knowledge construction
5/11 03:06:56.234 [2. Trade] Conference: where’s the conference?
5/11 03:06:58.156 [2. Trade] Conference: UC?
5/11 03:06:58.156 [Guild] Constances: only 8% was idle chatter
5/11 03:07:01.968 Boscotore raises his hand with a question.
5/11 03:07:02.250 [Guild] Constances: mom jokes, what have u
5/11 03:07:05.250 Zomboni is amazed by Constances!
5/11 03:07:06.671 [Guild] Southerncal: translation for us non educatin’ types?
5/11 03:07:11.406 [Guild] Constances: once i removed the jullian factor i mean
5/11 03:07:15.250 Tburke wonders what Constance’s makes of the concept of “procedural literacy” in this context.
5/11 03:07:16.421 [Guild] Pleimisti: !
5/11 03:07:19.312 [Guild] Constances: heheh
5/11 03:07:23.046 Forthewin ponders Constances’s theory.
5/11 03:07:28.671 Madrededios winks slyly at Ofielia.
5/11 03:07:29.500 [Guild] Iamlegion: !
5/11 03:07:29.796 [Guild] Southerncal: “social knowledge construction” = ?
5/11 03:07:30.203 [2. Trade] Jalena: Undercity 33,33, green goo pond in sewer
5/11 03:07:30.203 [2. Trade] Thegato: WHere’s Thegato? ORG?
5/11 03:07:33.062 Typezombie has come online.
5/11 03:07:40.187 Gonzorina ponders the situation.
5/11 03:07:43.484 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST!!
5/11 03:07:46.625 [2. Trade] Conference: okay omw
5/11 03:07:48.390 [2. Trade] Sallah: Anyone in orgrimmar able to open a Khorium Lockbox?
5/11 03:07:49.906 [Guild] Constances: problem solving, puzzling thru systems (often by hypothesizing models), etc
5/11 03:07:51.937 [Guild] Maindora: &”julian factor”
5/11 03:07:54.234 [Guild] Typezombie: hi folks is the confrence still going on today
5/11 03:07:58.359 [Guild] Alwayofmisha: social knowledge construction = learning
5/11 03:08:07.921 [Guild] Constances: oh, im razzing jullian. as if he’s a major effect for mom jokes
5/11 03:08:16.875 Zomboni laughs at Constances.
5/11 03:08:19.484 [Guild] Constances: o.o
5/11 03:08:28.734 [Guild] Pleimisti: apparently i am.
5/11 03:08:32.765 [2. Trade] Vlaudimir: LF a port to Shat from Slivermoon.. don’t have much money but will tip
5/11 03:08:35.265 [Guild] Southerncal: So, yes there is learning. Any limitations or affordances different than classrooms?
5/11 03:08:36.484 Forme has gone offline.
5/11 03:08:40.609 [Guild] Pleimisti: a social scientist said so.
5/11 03:08:41.921 [Guild] Augmentology: that’s interesting constance. i assume the “mom jokes”/chuck norris elements show a lvl of darwinian transference, with a strong indication of selection & adaptation specific to the synthetic environment
5/11 03:08:45.156 [2. Trade] Fadyenae: where can I go to get lockpicking skills up from 106??
5/11 03:08:59.312 Jalena listens with interest
5/11 03:09:04.953 Trickshot whispers: that was deep
5/11 03:09:09.875 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: Restorative Mace of the Whale Gutrender in AH
5/11 03:09:10.281 [Guild] Garaka: I still didn’t get the definition of “social knowledge construction”
5/11 03:09:12.281 [Guild] Constances: harummph, southern yes and yes.
5/11 03:09:13.500 To Trickshot: yup:)
5/11 03:09:14.812 Oisini waves at Crucinogen.
5/11 03:09:19.921 [2. Trade] Curnguz: 328resil MS war (33% crit, sword spec) LF Partner for 2v2, >300resil preferred
5/11 03:09:23.953 [2. Trade] Banktroll: on ah Elixir of Major Mageblood Elemental Seaforium Charge Super Mana Potion
5/11 03:09:25.953 Blindedbi dances with you.
5/11 03:09:27.593 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: Recipe: Philosopher’s Stone Recipe: Transmute Iron to Gold Recipe: Transmute Mithril to Truesilver in AH
5/11 03:09:33.203 [Guild] Southerncal: There is my quote for the day: “chuck norris elements show a level of darwinian transference”
5/11 03:09:34.515 Trickshot whispers: you were saving that one up weren’t you:)
5/11 03:09:38.765 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: Recipe: Transmute Arcanite Recipe: Transmute Iron to Gold in AH
5/11 03:09:40.859 [Guild] Maggiemae: lol
5/11 03:09:42.281 Forthewin laughs at Southerncal.
5/11 03:09:42.671 [Guild] Augmentology: eheheh:)
5/11 03:09:43.078 Yasura laughs.
5/11 03:09:43.859 Oisini dances with you.
5/11 03:09:45.062 Zomboni smiles at Southerncal.
5/11 03:09:45.500 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: Recipe: Tender Wolf Steak in AH
5/11 03:09:46.265 Jalena blows you a kiss.
5/11 03:09:48.515 [Guild] Constances: to put it plainly: folks here are focused on a motherload of intellectual work, that when compared to K-12 standards looks OFF THE HOOK
5/11 03:09:50.109 Gonzorina nods.
5/11 03:09:53.375 Jalena dances with you.
5/11 03:09:54.234 [2. Trade] Vlaudimir: looking for a port to Shat from Slivermoon.. i don’t have much money but i will tip
5/11 03:09:57.468 [Guild] Constances: now, NOT ALL peopel gaming do it
5/11 03:09:58.984 [2. Trade] Nonphixion: garbage recipes from vendors now in the AH.. HOW EXCITING
5/11 03:10:02.390 [2. Trade] Jaelan: LF engineer to make Elemental Seaforium Charges, have mats and 10G tip, PST if interested.
5/11 03:10:04.812 [Guild] Constances: and NOT ALL games elicit it (tho most do)
5/11 03:10:08.218 Zomboni gasps at Constances.
5/11 03:10:19.218 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:10:23.031 [Guild] Constances: but u can say same of classrooms and textbooks, so that shouldnt worry us
5/11 03:10:24.921 [2. Trade] Ururu: so… Cyralynne went and bought all the rare timed patterns from the vendor to stiff lowbies? sad
5/11 03:10:28.156 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:10:30.656 [Guild] Kandilgre: type /ignore Mashard if you can see that
5/11 03:10:31.859 [Guild] Constances: but truly lemme say one thing then ill shut it::::::::::::
5/11 03:10:32.265 Getfunked has come online.
5/11 03:10:34.593 [Guild] Pleimisti: what types of people/games? is it difinable?
5/11 03:10:36.468 Telmura pokes Mashard. Hey!
5/11 03:10:36.859 Forthewin is amazed.
5/11 03:10:41.109 [Guild] Pleimisti: *definable
5/11 03:10:46.625 Nise slaps Mashard across the face. Ouch!
5/11 03:10:47.046 [2. Trade] Nchaabichih: traditional!
5/11 03:10:50.968 [Guild] Maindora: shall we take this as an opportunity to discuss griefers?
5/11 03:10:54.437 [Guild] Thralmart: I use WoW as a teaching tool for my son,he wanted to find a specific pet and I pointed him in the general direction of the information.He did more online research for that than many of his school projects.
5/11 03:10:56.296 [2. Trade] Conference: where is the sewer?
5/11 03:10:57.890 [2. Trade] Thegato: It’s a living. WHatever. You guys look down on the garbage man too?
5/11 03:10:58.406 [Guild] Inductive: lol
5/11 03:11:01.656 [Guild] Constances: games are deeply life enhancing in teh Dewey sense for the majority of those who play. including & especially intellectually
5/11 03:11:01.656 [2. Trade] Clisen: LF priest for 3v3 (p/m/r)
5/11 03:11:07.609 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:11:08.062 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Atleast he’s going to the jam wit his girl.
5/11 03:11:19.453 Madrone says: /ignore mashard
5/11 03:11:23.171 [Guild] Constances: (great example thral)
5/11 03:11:25.687 [2. Trade] Ururu: garbage man doesnt NOT equal someone hiking prices on lowbies
5/11 03:11:28.000 Cloacina has come online.
5/11 03:11:35.312 You dance with Catullus.
5/11 03:11:36.125 [Guild] Tburke: So: want to learn calculus, World of Warcraft not a good idea. Want to learn how to get results in a small group? Fantastic. Want to learn in general how to act to improve results? Also fantastic. Is that a good breakdown?
5/11 03:11:42.578 [2. Trade] Wacovia: LF enchanters for void shatter PST
5/11 03:11:46.000 [2. Trade] Ururu: its more like someone buying wii’s near xmas and selling them for $1000 on ebay
5/11 03:11:50.703 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:11:53.421 [2. Trade] Curnguz: no, it’s more like the oil companies hiking up gas prices
5/11 03:11:54.343 Khatchi’s pet begins eating a Zesty Clam Meat.
5/11 03:11:54.343 Forthewin claps excitedly for Tburke.
5/11 03:11:58.765 [2. Trade] Emblaze: On AH: Security DELTA Data Access Card
5/11 03:12:01.218 Zomboni nods at Tburke.
5/11 03:12:01.218 [Guild] Constances: ya, want to learn how to mathematize? wow is pretty good
5/11 03:12:03.390 [Guild] Taurhild: Actually, the calculations some players do to figure out stats are stunning….
5/11 03:12:07.796 [2. Trade] Curnguz: actually, ururu’s is better
5/11 03:12:08.328 [2. Trade] Thegato: It’s inflation. If lowbies can’t afford it they won’t buy it. If that guy can’t sell it the price will come down. Supply side economics
5/11 03:12:08.703 Jalena giggles at Mashard.
5/11 03:12:13.437 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:12:20.593 [Guild] Southerncal: OK, speaking of skills:
5/11 03:12:23.296 Mashard says: DEMISE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD WOOOOOOOOT
5/11 03:12:23.296 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 6: Can an MMO really help make someone a leader?
5/11 03:12:24.109 Forthewin nods at Taurhild.
5/11 03:12:27.015 Blindedbi lies down before you.
5/11 03:12:37.687 You gently pat Blindedbi.
5/11 03:12:39.812 [Guild] Estelan: Much of leadership and management are about dealing with people-resolving conflicts, setting expectations, giving constructive feedback. Even if it’s all online, they’re still real people. As one 32-year old player put it …
5/11 03:12:43.328 [2. Trade] Thegato: If a WII sells for a grand it’s worth a grand
5/11 03:12:45.046 [Guild] Estelan: “It also gave me a lot of confidence - after all, if you can lead a 60-person complex raid, how hard can it be to organize a team meeting?”.
5/11 03:12:46.656 [2. Trade] Vlaudimir: looking for a port to UC from SC
5/11 03:12:52.468 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Not really.
5/11 03:12:57.515 Mashard says: lol
5/11 03:12:58.812 [2. Trade] Thegato: oh..ok
5/11 03:12:59.421 [2. Trade] Roja: WTS Enchant Weapon - Executioner my mats or yours, PST. REQUIRES LEVEL *60* OR HIGHER ITEM!
5/11 03:13:02.828 Tiral has gone offline.
5/11 03:13:02.828 You tell Blindedbi a joke.
5/11 03:13:08.171 Blindedbi cheers!
5/11 03:13:10.812 Madrone says: I like reporting serious griefers to their guild leader.
5/11 03:13:11.140 [2. Trade] Telur: The inflation of the server also helps lowbies, my brother mines copper with his level 20 and he has more gold than I had at 40
5/11 03:13:11.578 You tell Oisini a joke.
5/11 03:13:14.109 Zomboni nods at Estelan.
5/11 03:13:14.500 [Guild] Thoguht: /cheer
5/11 03:13:18.921 Jalena cheers at Mashard!
5/11 03:13:20.937 Mashard yells: demise still rules
5/11 03:13:21.937 [2. Trade] Thegato: 100% right
5/11 03:13:27.890 [2. Trade] Curnguz: he’s right, but at the same time, if only 3 wii’s sell for a grand but 100 of them are priced that way, the person is wasting resources
5/11 03:13:28.265 Grimflower yawns sleepily.
5/11 03:13:29.687 [Guild] Southerncal: I’ve seen a lot of opinion about this, but no solid research showing it. Falls under the “want to believe” category, no?
5/11 03:13:35.937 Kvinesdal cheers at Cymbiotic!
5/11 03:13:46.921 [Guild] Augmentology: or generative research, south:)
5/11 03:13:48.906 [2. Trade] Thegato: I have played 3 years. I remember how hard it was to make 100 gold.
5/11 03:13:50.406 [2. Trade] Curnguz: an unsold item is a wasted resource, especially when there’s a limited quantity of them
5/11 03:13:58.453 Jalena cheers!
5/11 03:14:01.671 [Guild] Augmentology: not empirical:)
5/11 03:14:02.515 [Guild] Southerncal: Can’t help myself. Validity FTW
5/11 03:14:07.906 [Guild] Augmentology: ehehh
5/11 03:14:07.906 [Guild] Zomboni: (Thelial): I was told this exactly in a recent interview I conducted.
5/11 03:14:13.156 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Some people are not patient, and will pay more for an item so if one guy pays 1k for a wii… Not everyone else will.
5/11 03:14:14.062 [Guild] Tburke: A sort of sideways approach to this, though. I actually think playing Dungeons and Dragons was a good way to develop my pedagogical skills. But online VWs “cap” or constrain how much players control the world and the social environment.
5/11 03:14:14.937 Forthewin says: You called?
5/11 03:14:19.875 [Guild] Akigain: i believe there was an article in Wired about companies hiring people who are guild/raid leaders
5/11 03:14:23.500 Tiamatt has come online.
5/11 03:14:24.796 [Guild] Henchbeard: could build it out of analysis of encounter design eprhaps, what skills are they teaching/rewarding?
5/11 03:14:29.343 [2. Trade] Thegato: And there is the definition of worth
5/11 03:14:29.750 [2. Trade] Curnguz: so yes, when there’s someone hording a limited quantity resource and selling them for exorbant prices, and they don’t sell…that person is frowned upon for hurting the economy as a whole
5/11 03:14:43.406 [Guild] Constances: there’s a doctoral student here doing work on leadership in wow from a leadership training perspective
5/11 03:14:45.140 [Guild] Tburke: I think Henchbeard’s question is really the key. What *kind* of leadership.
5/11 03:14:45.375 Conference yells: I’m here!
5/11 03:14:47.437 [Guild] Constances: and yes, he has data
5/11 03:14:57.203 [Guild] Taurhild: We discussed this a few weeks ago in Umeå -There’s a distinction between leadership and management
5/11 03:14:57.703 Jalena pokes you. Hey!
5/11 03:14:57.718 [Guild] Charolais: Reeves and Malone talk about leaderships skills in game transferring out into management recently in HBR
5/11 03:15:01.125 [Guild] Southerncal: So I’ve seen teh WIRED piece and the recent HBR piece, but how do we actually test/prove/study this? What kind of data?
5/11 03:15:08.046 Jalena claps excitedly for Conference.
5/11 03:15:08.859 [Guild] Taurhild: management can certainly be elarned in WoW
5/11 03:15:11.781 [Guild] Constances: yea, as a guild leader for many years, I can tell u that not all wow leadership skills transfer well
5/11 03:15:16.093 [Guild] Constances: but some do
5/11 03:15:18.125 Conference says: took me forever to find this place
5/11 03:15:21.468 [Guild] Estelan: Constance, can you say a little about the grad student’s methods? Longitudinal design?
5/11 03:15:21.468 [Guild] Taurhild: But where to learn leadership?
5/11 03:15:22.250 [2. Trade] Xelroth: That does not make the item that was sold for XX price worth that same price.
5/11 03:15:24.578 [2. Trade] Vlaudimir: looking for a port from Silvermoon City to Undercity
5/11 03:15:26.562 Madrone says: lol
5/11 03:15:26.562 Forthewin laughs at Conference.
5/11 03:15:33.468 [2. Trade] Curnguz: it does, the definition of worth is what someone will pay for it
5/11 03:15:41.656 Zomboni nods at Constances.
5/11 03:15:43.656 [2. Trade] Akuthia: vlad just use the translocater
5/11 03:15:46.484 [Guild] Augmentology: we have to be careful not to discount speculative modelling here, that we’re not layering any type of leadership generation with pre-supposed templating that only applies to so-termed “real-world” functioning?
5/11 03:15:56.484 [Guild] Southerncal: Yeah, C. Like to hear more. Also curious about what you think transfers and what doesn’t. Speculation is OK.
5/11 03:16:01.671 [Guild] Constances: longitudinal, both observational and interview/measure methinks
5/11 03:16:05.093 Blindedbi licks you.
5/11 03:16:06.703 [2. Trade] Vladmar: but it hurts
5/11 03:16:07.515 [2. Trade] Thegato: gas is expensive, and those folks are gonna make a killing until someone says “Hey, lets make fuel out of corn” Necessity is the mother of invention. Now that dudes gonna be rich, and good for him
5/11 03:16:08.828 [Guild] Constances: name is Moses WOlfenstein
5/11 03:16:18.578 You dance with Oisini.
5/11 03:16:21.718 Conference yells: invite to <science> ??
5/11 03:16:37.890 Conference has joined the guild.
5/11 03:16:42.125 [Guild] Pleimisti: she’s not kidding. that’s really his name.
5/11 03:16:47.046 [2. Trade] Curnguz: we’ve been making fuel out of corn. That hurts the economy far worse than gasoline does because of the raised prices of corn, which is a necessary food for the lower class
5/11 03:16:49.468 Jalena cheers at Conference!
5/11 03:16:51.671 Forthewin says: I reckon
5/11 03:16:57.406 [2. Trade] Curnguz: that’s why it hasn’t caught on =p
5/11 03:17:01.640 [Guild] Constances: its true. i didnt’ make his name up
5/11 03:17:05.703 [Guild] Southerncal: Awesome name. Going to skip a question to get to meatier one
5/11 03:17:05.703 [2. Trade] Xelroth: So, if I sell XX for XX price. Then someone who isn’t patient pays XX price for XX item then XX item is worth XX price by definition? Doesn’t mean that XX item will always sell for XX price.
5/11 03:17:11.984 [2. Trade] Qhang: and this discussion is relevant to WoW ?
5/11 03:17:12.796 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 8: Are people more or less prone to deception and lying in virtual worlds than they are in the real world? What makes someone trustworthy in WoW, and does that track against trust in real-world relationships?
5/11 03:17:14.593 [Guild] Constances: i have 2.5 yr ethnographic data on it but not sure thats what ur asking me for
5/11 03:17:17.531 [Guild] Iamlegion: part of problem is in leadership itself — how do you quantify it for purely
5/11 03:17:31.296 [2. Trade] Mooloco: you don’t use new veg oil. U use recycled veg oil from mcdonalds ect
5/11 03:17:31.296 [Guild] Iamlegion: RL questions
5/11 03:17:35.046 [2. Trade] Andraox: its not just a bunch of morons trying to feel smart
5/11 03:17:37.125 [2. Trade] Artimys: complaints about ah
5/11 03:17:47.718 [Guild] Tburke: This came up at a workshop I was at recently, and I was a bit surprised at how people thought that deception was rare in real life.
5/11 03:18:00.343 [Guild] Constances: thats so sweet!
5/11 03:18:00.765 [Guild] Tburke: We all perform roles, faces, postures.
5/11 03:18:01.171 [2. Trade] Curnguz: Xel, you can’t use XX for two different variables
5/11 03:18:06.187 [2. Trade] Qhang: the AH I understand, modern RL economics, I’d rather not listen to.
5/11 03:18:07.375 [Guild] Alwayofmisha: i would say that someones ingame trustworthiness partly depends on how real they see the VW as being
5/11 03:18:10.015 Teilnehmer has come online.
5/11 03:18:22.390 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Then switch price with X and item with XX.
5/11 03:18:23.625 [2. Trade] Curnguz: you’re in a trade channel. Expect to hear trade discussions
5/11 03:18:24.046 Constances agrees with Tburke.
5/11 03:18:24.281 [Guild] Henchbeard: consequences play a big part too
5/11 03:18:26.015 [Guild] Pleimisti: Also i think it’s key to factor in whether you’re talking about interactions between guildmates or not.
5/11 03:18:27.468 [2. Trade] Thegato: econ is econ.
5/11 03:18:34.812 [Guild] Akigain: just like in RW, generating positive social capital builds trusts among players
5/11 03:18:37.250 [Guild] Tburke: But I do think there are some really interesting heuristics that inform trust in an environment like WoW. Nick’s done good work on that.
5/11 03:18:37.531 [2. Trade] Qhang: I do, relative to the game. RP server, you might recall>
5/11 03:18:40.250 Jalena giggles at Telmura.
5/11 03:18:42.687 [2. Trade] Roja: WTS Enchant Weapon - Executioner my mats or yours, PST. REQUIRES LEVEL *60* OR HIGHER ITEM!
5/11 03:18:53.093 [Guild] Pleimisti: “in WoW” is a pretty variegated field, in terms of social connections.
5/11 03:18:53.375 [Guild] Estelan: Jeff Hancock, from Cornell, did a really interesting study of deception in online dating ads. They had age, height, and weight of the real people and the corresponding ads they had put up online. They found that almost everyone lied …
5/11 03:18:59.875 [Guild] Estelan: but that the lie was on average fairly small. But the opposite is also true, people are more willing to share secrets online because of the lack of social consequences …
5/11 03:19:01.796 [2. Trade] Trickshot: Anybody know how to take a screen shot with a mac?
5/11 03:19:01.796 [2. Trade] Curnguz: I do recall; that’s why we’re talking about economics?
5/11 03:19:04.734 [2. Trade] Thegato: I started this when someone was making fun of a guy selling stuff. You don’t like the price don
5/11 03:19:15.078 [Guild] Estelan: So about 35% of 3200 respondents said they had shared a secret with an online friend that they had never told anyone in the real world.
5/11 03:19:16.359 [2. Trade] Thegato: don’t buy it
5/11 03:19:20.593 [2. Trade] Qhang: yup
5/11 03:19:23.500 [2. Trade] Curnguz: making fun of a guy price gouging
5/11 03:19:25.234 [2. Trade] Roesha: wtb Sanguine Hibiscus.
5/11 03:19:25.234 [Guild] Conference: interesting
5/11 03:19:25.234 Perplextar dances with Iamlegion.
5/11 03:19:29.140 [2. Trade] Curnguz: not just “selling stuff”
5/11 03:19:34.265 [2. Trade] Thegato: then don’t buy it
5/11 03:19:38.296 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Economics = Serious business
5/11 03:19:41.625 [Guild] Southerncal: How much of this is the thinness or thickness of the medium and how much is the setting/particular social context?
5/11 03:19:45.796 [2. Trade] Leonidus: true story
5/11 03:19:51.468 [2. Trade] Defective: price gouging is under selling right
5/11 03:19:59.046 Trickshot’s TheMoyel is dismissed.
5/11 03:20:00.203 [2. Trade] Curnguz: price gouging is a frowned upon practice
5/11 03:20:01.031 [Guild] Southerncal: As in voice/text SL/WoW/ClubPenguin?
5/11 03:20:06.859 [Guild] Tburke: Here too different virtual worlds create different kinds of consciousness or practices. Many players would trust people in WoW based on thin information, but not in EVE.
5/11 03:20:14.062 [2. Trade] Curnguz: and hurts the economy far worse than just over-pricing something
5/11 03:20:14.609 Zomboni ponders the situation.
5/11 03:20:16.546 [Guild] Henchbeard: absolutely
5/11 03:20:22.578 [Guild] Henchbeard: consequence.
5/11 03:20:22.859 Stronglykbul dances with Telmura.
5/11 03:20:23.687 [Guild] Réjean: I fully agree with that
5/11 03:20:26.156 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: is the about reality or AH?
5/11 03:20:26.968 [2. Trade] Laiping: Enchant Weapon - Fiery Weapon 30g my mats free with yours
5/11 03:20:30.265 [2. Trade] Defective: oh, so what. if he charges more than what you think its worth tough ish
5/11 03:20:37.703 [2. Trade] Defective: move on. its called supply and demand
5/11 03:20:37.703 [Guild] Taurhild: I think people are gettign better at integrating computer based communication into their other social interactions. Which means we are getting an etiquette for it, slowly.
5/11 03:20:38.250 [2. Trade] Thegato: Daily quests hurt the WOW economy more than anything
5/11 03:20:54.656 [2. Trade] Nchaabichih: If you dn’t want to spend the money they’re asking for then just don’t buy it. price will drop. This is simple economics
5/11 03:20:55.218 [Guild] Charolais: there are studies that decption is easier/more likely in avatar vs chat online interactions.
5/11 03:20:57.406 [2. Trade] Queila: Cloudkeeper Legplates Imbued Netherweave Pants Schematic: Flawless Arcanite Rifle on AH
5/11 03:21:02.593 Why kneels down.
5/11 03:21:12.296 [2. Trade] Clisen: LF priest for 3v3 pst
5/11 03:21:15.187 Mower has gone offline.
5/11 03:21:16.421 [2. Trade] Roesha: wtb Sanguine Hibiscus pst
5/11 03:21:17.578 [Guild] Pleimisti: i think what’s key in Tim’s point is that VWs are different from online generally
5/11 03:21:18.906 [2. Trade] Curnguz: i think people don’t understand the concept of gouging vs over-pricing something
5/11 03:21:20.734 [Guild] Southerncal: NOTE: Nearing end. If you have a Q for the panel, pst to me
5/11 03:21:32.093 Gizsela says: isn’t that the whole point of RP?
5/11 03:21:36.671 [2. Trade] Zharve: Daily quests do hurt the economy, but if we didn’t have them people would be broke after getting their epic flyers
5/11 03:21:37.031 [Guild] Estelan: There was an interesting study recently that people were more likely to lie when using an avatar that was very different from them
5/11 03:21:40.937 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Then said people need to take economics class
5/11 03:21:41.421 [Guild] Pleimisti: they play with fiction/nonfiction in often assertive ways
5/11 03:21:43.484 [2. Trade] Borazon: Price is where buyers and sellers meet.
5/11 03:21:49.609 [Guild] Conference: I found that server type plays a huge role in trust and aggressive behaviour. For instance, on a pvp server two similar leveled hunters or warriors may leave each other alone if on opposing factions, but not always when competing for resources or quest m
5/11 03:22:05.296 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: one thing I think we are all forgetting is the consumers have veto power…if you don’t like the price, don’t bye
5/11 03:22:08.109 [2. Trade] Defective: why dont you expain the difference then
5/11 03:22:09.968 [2. Trade] Curnguz: daily quests don’t hurt the economy. Daily quests = Job
5/11 03:22:10.703 [2. Trade] Immahealu: Lf jc to craft teardrop crimson spinel
5/11 03:22:30.953 [2. Trade] Shikaka: can someone link me mats for Nethercleft Leg Armor pls
5/11 03:22:32.593 [2. Trade] Chir: daily quests pay for my daily respecs
5/11 03:22:34.234 [2. Trade] Curnguz: gouging is buying up all of a limited necessary resource, and then hiking the price up.
5/11 03:22:42.656 Jalena dances with Conference.
5/11 03:22:45.718 [Guild] Southerncal: Last Q from me, then some from the audience
5/11 03:22:48.109 [2. Trade] Defective: such as what resource?
5/11 03:22:48.109 Profraotan has joined the guild.
5/11 03:22:50.593 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 9: Blame Mr. Bungle for all of this, but: Are there good real-world models or practices for governance, management and social organization that aren’t present in World of Warcraft, but could/should be? What other models in other spaces work?
5/11 03:22:51.421 [Guild] Profraotan: hello!
5/11 03:22:52.718 [2. Trade] Thegato: Daily quest=print more money because we’re out=inflation=weak currency=4$ gas
5/11 03:22:55.937 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Buy everything, sell it at whatever price you want. Overpricing is just putting an item up for more then most people
5/11 03:22:57.546 [2. Trade] Vlaudimir: why is it that nobody out here likes to help ppl out?
5/11 03:23:01.296 [2. Trade] Xelroth: Defective, Crimson Spinel
5/11 03:23:06.875 [Guild] Augmentology: hey prof
5/11 03:23:24.609 [2. Trade] Laiping: Enchant Weapon - Fiery Weapon 25g my mats free with yours
5/11 03:23:25.421 [2. Trade] Curnguz: vendor recipes that have a limited number of purchases
5/11 03:23:26.203 [2. Trade] Defective: and thats only buyable from an npc?
5/11 03:23:27.875 [2. Trade] Zharve: The amount of money you make doing dailies does hurt the economy…sellers realize that you will have more money because of all the dailies and will up there prices…which means that even if you can buy their item you will be broke again
5/11 03:23:34.343 [2. Trade] Chir: we help people that dont ask at retarded times… and in a way that says “you should help me because I said so” vlaudimir
5/11 03:23:34.359 [Guild] Pleimisti: It’s hard to say. there have been so few other models of governance.
5/11 03:23:39.203 [2. Trade] Thegato: I help people I know, but WTF, I don’t buy groceries for the people down the street that may not need it
5/11 03:23:44.500 Rissy coughs.
5/11 03:23:44.500 [Guild] Conference: well
5/11 03:23:48.437 [Guild] Tburke: This is where I get into my obsession with sovereignty.
5/11 03:23:58.312 [2. Trade] Killertoally: can some one help me with this instance
5/11 03:24:04.546 [Guild] Tburke: It would be an advance if developers simply recognized that they *do* govern.
5/11 03:24:10.390 Gizsela has gone offline.
5/11 03:24:12.890 [Guild] Pleimisti: LambdaMOO was this brief athenian moment, but all the others have been these sort of corporate autocracies. even SL.
5/11 03:24:14.406 [2. Trade] Terrabull: Yes but everybody has the opportunity to sell and make more money as a seller - so a rise in prices doesn’t hurt as long as you buy and sell equally
5/11 03:24:15.578 Scienceagain has come online.
5/11 03:24:21.140 [2. Trade] Lingr: PRECiSiON is LF one more healer for a Kara run today at 6pm server time. PST if interested!
5/11 03:24:34.906 [Guild] Ealphaba: i find it very interesting that so many people are perfectly happy to “reside” in a world where they essentially have no legal recourse
5/11 03:24:39.343 Tburke nods at Pleimisti.
5/11 03:24:39.578 [Guild] Augmentology: there’s a certain lvl of recursiveness inbuilt there it seems…forcing a structural re-write into a synthetic environment would really completely alter the trajectory/”natural” function>progression of that environ wouldn’t it?
5/11 03:24:39.578 [Guild] Henchbeard: the EVE developer ‘cheating’ could be relevant here too.
5/11 03:24:40.031 [2. Trade] Paralyze: ^^^^ do it
5/11 03:24:53.843 [2. Trade] Shikaka: can someone link me mats for Nethercleft Leg Armor pls
5/11 03:25:03.906 [Guild] Rissy: However in SL you are free to set up a “group” with different levels of roles and responsibilities as well as rights for your organization, professional association or other type of network.
5/11 03:25:10.453 [2. Trade] Trizzy: Pattern: Nethercobra Leg Armor
5/11 03:25:20.546 [2. Trade] Curnguz: not the same thing :-p
5/11 03:25:21.750 [2. Trade] Trizzy: oops
5/11 03:25:29.515 [2. Trade] Fierte: Now cutting a variety of gems! Whisper me “!gem” for more info. Tips not required but appreciated. I am currently in Shattrath.
5/11 03:25:29.812 [Guild] Taurhild: We have to remember the nature of “games” vs “worlds”
5/11 03:25:32.812 [2. Trade] Trizzy: Pattern: Nethercleft Leg Armor
5/11 03:25:35.734 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: would love to do Jewelcrafting for interested parties
5/11 03:25:35.734 [Guild] Tburke: Yes.
5/11 03:25:37.250 [2. Trade] Alkidas: Nethercleft Leg Armor Leatherworking: Nethercobra Leg Armor
5/11 03:25:39.968 [Guild] Taurhild: In games we are supposed to follow set rules
5/11 03:25:42.390 Stronglykbul dances with Telmura.
5/11 03:25:48.828 [2. Trade] Alkidas: Leatherworking: Nethercleft Leg Armor
5/11 03:25:54.546 [2. Trade] Alkidas: sorry about that
5/11 03:25:58.875 [Guild] Tburke: Part of the question would be in game-type VWs, are there “playful” social forms or structures that no one has implemented or allowed?
5/11 03:25:58.875 [2. Trade] Shikaka: rofl i am so confused!
5/11 03:26:07.234 [2. Trade] Trizzy: lol
5/11 03:26:09.062 [2. Trade] Thegato: WTS Lunacy Deck Crystalblade of the Draenei Legion Crown of the ProphetCHEAP! Helping WoW econ
5/11 03:26:17.421 [Guild] Atratas: yet games are often presented to us as worlds Taurhild
5/11 03:26:20.609 Wraithen has joined the guild.
5/11 03:26:22.828 [2. Trade] Stronglykbul: Help him help the econ!!
5/11 03:26:23.718 [2. Trade] Curnguz: 328resil MS war (33% crit, sword spec) LF 2v2 Partner. 300+ resil only please
5/11 03:26:27.750 [Guild] Rissy: They shouldn’t be. They are games.
5/11 03:28:17.484 [2. Trade] Shikaka: wtt all the mats for a already made Nethercleft Leg Armor
5/11 03:28:18.593 [Guild] Estelan: well, it’s more like strangers in a war trench … it’s the sudden crises that spark a lot of relationships
5/11 03:28:21.437 Tannim’s pet begins eating a Raw Longjaw Mud Snapper.
5/11 03:28:33.984 Getfunked creates Bolt of Linen Cloth.
5/11 03:28:37.109 Getfunked creates Bolt of Linen Cloth.
5/11 03:28:38.312 Telmura agrees with Estelan.
5/11 03:28:40.312 Getfunked creates Bolt of Linen Cloth.
5/11 03:28:41.781 Forthewin agrees with Estelan.
5/11 03:28:42.546 [Guild] Taurhild: I’d love to get into the world vs game issue, but we should do it elsewhere, before I start some shameless plugging.
5/11 03:28:42.546 Tannim’s pet begins eating a Raw Bristle Whisker Catfish.
5/11 03:28:44.015 [Guild] Perplextar: what computabull said: I like the exploration in wow, find “games” boring
5/11 03:28:44.343 [2. Trade] Dhayana: WTS Nethercleft Leg Armor
5/11 03:28:45.140 [Guild] Tburke: I think “swift trust” changes the more a player has played in a VW.
5/11 03:28:52.296 [Guild] Estelan: but this was more true of the older MMOs (like EQ) where the death pnealty was more painful …
5/11 03:28:54.921 [Guild] Pleimisti: i think another thing that expedites trust in VWs, relative to other online spaces, is economics
5/11 03:29:00.843 [2. Trade] Logar: 453 reslience 13k hp fel g specd warlock lf a 3 vs 3 team
5/11 03:29:05.218 Pipetter has come online.
5/11 03:29:05.593 [Guild] Rissy: laugh, ping me and we’ll have that debate in SL in our amphitheatre
5/11 03:29:08.000 [Guild] Tburke: The more experience a player has, the slower to expedite trust or have “stranger intimacy”.
5/11 03:29:16.328 [Guild] Annelida: some of us play wow more like a team sport than a “game” per se
5/11 03:29:31.515 [Guild] Tburke: (I think that’s true about online interaction in general.)
5/11 03:29:34.734 Kandilgre cheers at Annelida!
5/11 03:29:35.156 [Guild] Southerncal: Audience Q: Why aren’t VWs used more for research? Is there a stigma preventing it or something else? And how many people’s spouses currently think you are not “working” right now?
5/11 03:29:44.796 Paluka nods at Annelida.
5/11 03:29:44.796 Forthewin nods at Annelida.
5/11 03:29:45.187 [Guild] Maggiemae: LOL
5/11 03:29:48.312 [Guild] Pleimisti: ha
5/11 03:29:48.312 Zomboni laughs.
5/11 03:29:50.343 [Guild] Maggiemae: and my daughter!
5/11 03:29:51.953 [Guild] Kandilgre: <—-
5/11 03:29:52.359 [Guild] Tburke: I got an eyeroll about twenty minutes back.
5/11 03:29:52.359 [Guild] Niali: too true!
5/11 03:29:58.234 [Guild] Inductive: mine accepts it then sighs
5/11 03:30:00.171 Paluka says: lol
5/11 03:30:00.578 Warahip has come online.
5/11 03:30:01.515 [Guild] Saraswathi: my spouse and kids have been thoroughly indoctrinated in this matter
5/11 03:30:04.609 [Guild] Akigain: same here
5/11 03:30:14.484 [Guild] Typezombie: mine does reasearch on VW so it is ok =)
5/11 03:30:18.296 [Guild] Annelida: my significant other and children play with me ;p
5/11 03:30:19.109 [Guild] Tburke: But I think one issue is that the most interesting VWs are hard to work with because they’re major commercial products.
5/11 03:30:22.515 [Guild] Pipetter: I’ve chosen not to engage in a relationship because I’m married to the game.
5/11 03:30:26.140 [2. Trade] Laiping: Enchant Weapon - Fiery Weapon 25g my mats free with yours
5/11 03:30:27.953 [Guild] Boscotore: My room mates make fun of me mercilessly.
5/11 03:30:28.750 [Guild] Shugar: joking aside, the field of study lacks a lot of rigor and grounding that other fields have
5/11 03:30:29.562 [Guild] Madrone: my husband and I both play…our son got us started
5/11 03:30:29.953 [Guild] Tburke: Iterability would be really useful for studying them.
5/11 03:30:31.578 [Guild] Taurhild: Mine are actually pretty proud. It’s long time since my son used the line “My mother is higher level than you” To diss people at school…
5/11 03:30:36.390 [2. Trade] Lingr: PRECiSiON is LF one more healer for a Kara run today at 6pm server time. PST if interested!
5/11 03:30:44.234 [Guild] Noralore: my spouse and I met at MediaMOO in 1994, so we’re in the thick of it together
5/11 03:30:51.296 [Guild] Estelan: Yeah, as Tim said, it’s hard to work with the game companies on research most of the times.
5/11 03:30:52.484 [Guild] Profsmith: my wife wants me to play
5/11 03:31:20.250 [Guild] Tburke: Well, one there’s the issue of access to useful data.
5/11 03:31:21.062 [Guild] Forme: These VWs lack an open API to collect any data, even statistical.
5/11 03:31:29.812 Zomboni nods at Tburke.
5/11 03:31:31.015 [Guild] Pleimisti: They have a proprietary interest in their data.
5/11 03:31:36.843 [Guild] Typezombie: is there a WoW or MMO researchers mailing list?
5/11 03:31:38.468 [Guild] Shugar: it hasn’t even reached the level of other media studies, such a film and TV, and they are still “ghetto-ized”
5/11 03:31:38.859 [Guild] Akigain: i don’t think it lacks rigor, it’s just that studying games and play is a difficult field to explain to others, especially video games, being “half-real”
5/11 03:31:39.312 Stronglykbul dances with Telmura.
5/11 03:31:41.687 [Guild] Pleimisti: And a lot of money riding on that interest.
5/11 03:31:44.703 [Guild] Kandilgre: Data collection is difficult, and how do you study this environment without changing it
5/11 03:31:52.843 [Guild] Tburke: But for another, think how interesting in a research sense it would be if WoW had ten different rulesets on its servers.
5/11 03:31:53.484 Callea has gone offline.
5/11 03:32:02.187 [Guild] Tburke: But that’s got a cost on the service end for them.
5/11 03:32:05.718 Maggiemae nods at Tburke.
5/11 03:32:07.312 [Guild] Rissy: Point-SL has open API and statistical data is being developed. It depends on you primarily, to program and set that up.
5/11 03:32:08.531 Zomboni points at Estelan.
5/11 03:32:08.921 [Guild] Getfunked: how do you study any environment without effect….
5/11 03:32:19.593 [1. General] Anceints: lf1m sfk
5/11 03:32:23.031 Stronglykbul nods at Maggiemae.
5/11 03:32:25.843 [Guild] Pleimisti: Well, instead of the 4 that they do have, Tburke?
5/11 03:32:25.843 [Guild] Southerncal: So there is a large project researching EQ2 data I and others (Nick among them) are working on. We have all of the system data, plus survey work. First paper on it was just accepted and we’ll post it to the wiki.
5/11 03:32:39.515 [Guild] Estelan: And I think many IRBs are still catching up on what doing research in these environments actually mean
5/11 03:32:46.859 [Guild] Tburke: But the variation is just along one very thin axis, Plei.
5/11 03:32:57.531 Paluka nods at Estelan.
5/11 03:33:02.375 [Guild] Southerncal: This reminds me that those of you who want to post papers and works in progress should send them to Bill. Email’s on the wiki.
5/11 03:33:10.734 [Guild] Southerncal: And our final Q:
5/11 03:33:12.718 [Guild] Southerncal: QUESTION 10: True or False: Julian Dibbell is an atrocious ninja-looter.
5/11 03:33:17.156 [Guild] Saraswathi: TRUE
5/11 03:33:17.171 [Guild] Estelan: ROFL
5/11 03:33:18.343 Gonzorina nods at Thralmart.
5/11 03:33:18.359 [Guild] Rissy: cackle!
5/11 03:33:20.671 Nise laughs at Southerncal.
5/11 03:33:21.484 [Guild] Zscheme: lmao
5/11 03:33:21.875 Paluka laughs.
5/11 03:33:22.265 [Guild] Tburke: (I think as a side issue that expecting “rigor” of a certain kind in studying *any* complex system is an epistemological booboo)
5/11 03:33:23.484 [Guild] Jusdafacs: TRUE!
5/11 03:33:23.484 [Guild] Taurhild: I am sure that is true!
5/11 03:33:23.875 Zomboni laughs.
5/11 03:33:24.687 Getfunked bursts into dance.
5/11 03:33:24.687 [Guild] Inductive:
5/11 03:33:25.093 [Guild] Augmentology: lol:)
5/11 03:33:25.500 [Guild] Pleimisti: Right, but vary it much more, and the game’s not fun anymore, and poof no more subjects…
5/11 03:33:26.765 [Guild] Constances: his mom is, yes.
5/11 03:33:26.765 Iamlegion laughs at Khole.
5/11 03:33:27.390 [Guild] Pleimisti: oh
5/11 03:33:31.218 [Guild] Pleimisti: wait.
5/11 03:33:32.828 [Guild] Tburke: Now THAT is a rigorous finding.
5/11 03:33:33.828 [Guild] Pleimisti: what?
5/11 03:33:35.437 [Guild] Forme: ninjaing ftw!
5/11 03:33:37.062 Zomboni laughs at Pleimisti.
5/11 03:33:39.078 Stronglykbul laughs at Catullus.
5/11 03:33:40.750 [2. Trade] Schme: Netherweave Bag on AH 6g each
5/11 03:33:42.703 Stronglykbul laughs.
5/11 03:33:46.296 [Guild] Constances: 9 of 10 Terrors say yah
5/11 03:33:47.921 [Guild] Saraswathi: we have empirical data on that. longitudinal, even.
5/11 03:33:50.531 [Guild] Jusdafacs: long live the king of Ninjas!
5/11 03:33:50.937 [Guild] Pleimisti: Doh! Now let me say this about that…
5/11 03:33:53.390 [Guild] Estelan: lol
5/11 03:33:54.156 [Guild] Constances: it does generalize
5/11 03:33:54.578 Iamlegion roars with bestial vigor. So fierce!
5/11 03:33:55.796 [2. Trade] Cyralynne: Truesilver Commander’s Ring Aquamarine Signet of the Boar Aquamarine Pendant of the Warrior
5/11 03:34:00.437 [Guild] Computabull: TO CONCLUDE THE SESSION: 1) Wait while a Human tries to draw guards into out room, then exit, turn left, right and leap out. 5 min BIO BREAK before Sylvanas.